[singleminded]

I recently made a hollow spindle for a '36 Sports 9 that had problems due to the chainwheel bush being totally shot.
It looks as though the rear setup is a poor design, no proper bearing like the earlier bikes and as you say no hinged mudguard to easily remove the rear wheel.

[Greybeard]

I decided to fit new tyres to the Lion today with a more period tread pattern, which involved removing the rear wheel, something I'd planned to do before the start of the summer - when we eventually get one
If you recall, I had to make a new front axle spindle due to it snapping and at the time I wondered whether the rear was in the same state. I needn't have wondered too hard. It was! Exactly the same break. I knew I should have made two at the time. Ah, well, it's something to do whilst it's raining/snowing out there.
I'm impressed at the Sunbeam designer's confidence that a 'beam will never get a rear wheel puncture whilst you're out and about. They evidently gave little or no thought to the ease with which the wheel can be removed at the roadside, did they? 

Steve

[iansoady]

Good result. I always find it much more satisfying to make something myself than to buy a new bit off the shelf.

Not that I seem to have too much choice with the Model 10......

[Greybeard]

The front wheel is now reinstated to its rightful position and spins beautifully. I found that by taking up the slack of the tapered rollers on the hollow spindle then backing off the nut about 1/3rd of a turn leaves just enough endfloat and allows for a tiny amount of play to be felt at the wheel rim when everything is nipped up. Two quid for steel and about 3 hours well spent, I reckon 

Steve

[singleminded]

Loctite Bearing Fit is wonderful stuff......

That and shim steel is what holds my drive side bearings in ..John

[iansoady]

Looks good. I agree entirely about the last cut. One moment it won't go in - the next, after taking the smallest cut my aged Granville will achieve, it's flopping about all over the place.

Loctite Bearing Fit is wonderful stuff......

[singleminded]

Nicely done..John

[Greybeard]

Cancel the wanted ad  It's taken a while and two attempts.The difference between a nice push fit for the bearings and a loose one is about 1/4 the thickness of a gnat's hair. Fortunately I had enough steel for two lengths - and it's got me away from  that dancing stuff on the TV we have to suffer every year 
I'll get the old girl back together tomorrow and be back on the road. Thing is, dare I check the rear wheel now? 



Thanks for the contributions. It all helps boost the morale.
Steve

[Greybeard]

For small jobs a squirt of paraffin or wd40 normally suffices - this needs a bit more stuff cutting off the big lump.
And besides, I like the smell 

Steve

[iansoady]

Cutting fluid - How posh!

You must be one of these gentlemen I hear about.

[Greybeard]

Well spotted re the die, Ian, I'd missed that one. Carbon steel would do until I know how it works out. It'll only be used for final tweaking anyway.
I've just got back from scrounging a length of 1 inch bar  off an engineering mate in the village. Once I've changed the cutting fluid in the lathe I'll be ready to make some swarf 

I thought for a moment, John, that you wee about tell me that Vincent used the same axle 

Steve

[peter wright]

You make good points about the adjustment. I would think that merely tightening the locknut would also close up the inner one a bit, even without the inner nut turning.

My suggestion of a thin spacer was only as a temporary measure so the whole plot could be worked on mounted in the frame. I will remove it for the final installation.

The front wheel of my 250 isn't a QD type and the adjusters are readily accessible from outside on the right so can be set with the wheel in the fork. The odd thing was, and maybe due to manufacturing tolerances of the hub and axle, the locknut only went onto the axle thread by about one turn, if that. I was fearful of stripping it when tightening so had the inner nut slimmed down a bit to let it engage a bit more. Like the rear it is the nut that bears against the side of the fork lug.

Peter

[iansoady]

I wouldn't bother with HSS for a one-off. Tracy Tools do a 3/4" x 24 tpi Whit (55 degree) form for £14: http://www.tracytools.com/taps-and-dies/whitform-taps-dies?product_id=1130

I actually think carbon steel cuts just as well if not better till it wears out!

BTW I was in error when I said there was no lock nut on my rear wheel - there is indeed one, inside the brake drum so I will adjust it off the bike and see how that goes.

[singleminded]

I'm not so certain that the type of steel used in the bearing tube is critical.
As some of you may have noticed from my posts, I also own a Vincent.
Vincent used a hollow axle with tapered bearings, the play being adjusted with shims and the nuts on the end for locking the adjustment.
When Vincents could not get the imperial bearings, most likely due to supply problems, they used metric and an ALLOY hollow axle.
I suspect the most important aspect of making a new hollow axle will be getting the fits dead on..John

[Greybeard]

That method of cone adjustment is common on early bicycles too, Ian. The flash inspiration for a locknut must have taken time to materialise - unless the bean counters of the time resented the expense of one more nut and washer  It may be vague but at least it's accessible. If there's no groove machined along the spindle for the tab of a washer then it looks/sounds like you have everything there.
I've just discovered that the thread used is likely to be UNS - Unified National Special. I'm still contemplating how the term 'unified' and 'special' work together.
Before I blow £42 on a HSS die (I'll do the initial work by thread cutting on the lathe - the die is for cleaning it up) is anyone able to confirm I've identified it correctly, please?

I am going to have Caveat Emptor embossed on my cheque books 

Steve

[iansoady]

The manual for my Model 10 - the poverty model produced in the Depression - states that rear wheel bearings are indeed adjusted with the brake plate off hence with the wheel out, but of course I don't have a QD wheel. It adds words to the effect that this is rarely required......

Mine has cup and cone bearings rather than taper rollers and the difference between too tight and too slack is minimal. As you say, too tight is worse. When I dismantled it the bearings were binding due to over adjustment but fortunately the races don't seem to have suffered. I don't have the luxury(?) of a tab washer, merely rotating the outer cone which is then "locked" in place with the outer nut / brake plate. At least that's how it came to me, and the pictures in the parts book are far too indistinct to tell what it should look like..

I do understand what you say about dealers - my bike came from a well known dealer in East Anglia and I have to say that the condition sheet describing it was somewhat optimistic in places.

[Greybeard]

Good morning, Peter.
The manual seems to be a little vague on the subject and I've found no 'exploded' drawings to assist. It could well be that Sunbeam altered the set up on a whim, or following complaints about fiddly tapered bearing adjustment and in later versions moved the adjustment to the more accessible end of the axle 
Having spoken to Les last night it seems that this particular arrangement appears prone to snapping as mine has done and new ones are now unobtainium.
As far as adjustment goes then it is going to be a matter of trial and error. The tapered bearings will need setting up on the hollow spindle first with some shake allowed in the bearings. As you suspected, the first nut goes on to the hollow spindle abutting the bearing, followed by the tab washer. That tab does, as you surmised,  prevent the washer from disturbing the first nut when you next tighten the outer locking nut. Then comes the point where everything will no doubt go awry. Putting the wheel back in the bike and tightening the wheel spindle will, however slightly, compress the hollow spindle and therefore nip up the bearings a little more! If you've been lucky and judged the amount of slack correctly at stage 1, then you should still have a small amount of play in the bearing which will be felt at the rim  If not, then I'm afraid it's out with the wheel and start again I dare say, back in Sunbeamland, the builder soon got a feel for the correct adjustment and got it right every time. It is essential that there is a little play in a tapered roller bearing as they can easily be overloaded and soon fail. One fortunate feature is that such bearings shouldn't need frequent adjustment once correctly set.
It looks like I shall have to set to and make a replacement spindle for mine. It doesn't seem as though the spindle is case hardened at all at it marks very easily with a file. The thread threw me when I checked it. I'd assumed that it would be 3/4 inch x 26tpi BSCY, but no, Sunbeam have used a 24tpi. Always ready to catch the unwary was Mr. Marston 
I'll let you know how I get on in due course.

PS - personally, I wouldn't let the spacer bear on the end of the tube as it will burr and splay the thread making later removal of the nuts very difficult. The nut gives a much bigger surface for the spacer to bear against too.

Steve

[peter wright]

Regret I can't help with a hollow axle but I'm interested in your comments on adjusting the bearings.

My 250 uses the same wheel on the rear but with a smaller brakedrum attached, so the arrangement is the same. I presently have it in pieces pending fixing the broken brake shoe and confirming rim offset.

I have assembled it loosely back in the frame minus brakedrum and was planning on ultimately adjusting the bearing in place like this.

Unfortunately I don't remember exactly how it all went but have an idea the adjuster nut slightly overhangs the hollow axle and the wide surface of the nut is what gets clamped against the dummy spindle. This would make it impossible to adjust so I am planning on making a spacer to go here and allow it to clamp up on the end of the hollow spindle. This will keep it all solid while the bearing is adjusted and the brake can be re-fitted after, so no need to be taking the wheel out numerous times.

The next question is the adjustment itself. What does the washer with the tit do? I think this is the item called "lipped washer" in the parts book. I believe it goes between the nuts but don't now remember how I discovered/confirmed this. It is too thick to be a tab washer. Thinking about it just now I think the tit is to prevent tightening of the outer nut dragging the inner nut around and ruining the adjustment.

The first nut is slightly recessed into the hub and would need the spanner I modified for the front wheel to be slimmed down a lot more; might even be impossible if the seal holder won't pass over the washer.

Probably a couple of years since I was working on it but hope to get back to it soon. Just wondered whether you can add anything to the above.

Regards,
Peter

[Greybeard]

If there's one thing I'm learning about Sunbeams (or any other piece of old machinery), it's that you never buy via a dealer so that you've no chance of meeting and assessing the abilities of the previous owner or 'restorer' 
Having decided to take off the front wheel this afternoon to clean the front drum as the brake was grabbing at low speed, I uncovered a problem that won't have been helping and by the looks of it has been there for some time. The hollow spindle that supports the bearings had broken off at the threaded end. Needless to say bearing adjustment is impossible and alignment vague.

What I was surprised at was the fact that the adjustment nuts were hidden - albeit free floating in this case - inside the brake drum end of the wheel hub so that to get to them the wheel has to come out each time. That would make setting a needlessly tiresome and long-winded affair. I wonder what on earth Marstons were thinking of when they came up with that idea - or has it been assembled incorrectly?  The manual suggests that adjustment should be at the left side of the machine and possible without even removing the wheel spindle.
Anyway, this ranting doesn't solve my problem. Has anyone got a replacement lying around, please? If not I'll have to fire up the Boxford and have a go at making one, though the choice of steel may be problematical for such an important load-bearing part. Having said that, the original one didn't do all that well Thanks.

PS - as the wheels are interchangeable I wonder if the rear wheel should have the same arrangement. I shall have to investigate.

PPS - just checked the rear wheel and the set-up is the same. Adjustments nuts safely out of sight and inaccessible behind the brake plate, though on the left side this time 

Steve