[iansoady]

Look forward to the saga. Netflix knocking yet?

[Andy Cubin]

All in the next episode Davetom.

As I dug around I found more and more things that needed fiddling with, so I decided to put all of that together in a single film on its own - currently in production!

And you have rumbled me...done a bit before!

Cheers

Andy

[Davetom]

"..rebuilding is simply a reverse of the dismantling, so no need to spend too much time on that.."  Ahem..!  Putting them back together is the difficult bit in my experience, that's where the skill comes in - fitting piston to barrel without breaking rings, setting tappets, checking clearances etc ? Very professional look to the video though, have you done subjects other than bikes ?

[Andy Cubin]

For those of you mascochists out there:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM7ssxfhKz8

[iansoady]

Good episode Andy. I too use those little batteries which don't have much in reserve but as I don't plan extensive (or any) night-time riding not a problem. You have the same H52 headlamp as I do (very well made device) but your switch looks like a later one. The original has sprung copper blades that make the connections to the ammeter, a half-charge resistor, and even a handy wiring diagram:



I always put a fuse in the earth lead. The rationale is that if anything shorts the live battery terminal to earth the fuse will blow rather than melting the earth lead....

I did discover this when I managed to do precisely that with a carelessly wielded screwdriver on a Matchless G80S.

[Andy Cubin]

Battery, Horn and Dipswitch!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4sprAKPisw

[VicYouel]

Good comments Ian and as for mole grips UGHHH

Vic

[iansoady]

Mole Grips!!!!

The proper tool is a C spanner which are available in many different sizes and will not mark the surface of the collars. In extremis however I have been known to use Stillsons.......

It would be useful to mention that the engine should be at TDC on the compression stroke when removing the rocker box as otherwise it can distort as you slacken off the bolts.

I always put a screw of rag in the plug hole as things like the shims you mention can easily find their way down there. Not a problem if you're removing the head of course.

I would have removed the pushrods & tubes before lifting the head to avoid potential damage.

Valve "Retainers" / "keepers" are normally called collets.

The spacer / shim is a head gasket. I believe that all Sunbeams (sure someone will correct me) had a ground head / barrel joint although my Model 10 did have a copper flame ring which I have refitted.

Lifting the barrel: I usually lift it about 3" or so then hold it in position with a bit of flat bar between the fins and resting on the holding down studs. It's then easy to put more rag in the top of the crankcase so if there are any bits of ring etc they will be caught in it rather than dropping into the crankcase. I'm always alone in my workshop......

You normally do get some sideways movement on the big end - what is unacceptable is any up and down movement. This can be difficult to detect especially if the engine has run recently and the bearing is full of oil. Again, the little end can have a small amount of sideways play without a problem but up & down requires attention.

Hope this all doesn't sound like nitpicking!

[Andy Cubin]

Part 9 - The Engine Strip Down:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG0r6YJJ0SU

[iansoady]

Yes!

See other thread......

[Andy Cubin]

Holding my sides Ian!

Deliberately short as it is the intro - now well into re-wiring so this subject will be a few episodes.

Did you get the bike going?

[iansoady]

Very good if a bit short*



*see what I did there?

[Andy Cubin]

Part 10 - introduction to the electrics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1dEui3anlk

Part 9 is still in production while I wait for my cylinder head to come back - about 10 days or so.

Meanwhile, a bit of rewiring...

[iansoady]

Looks fine to me. If I was picky I'd call it an oil control ring and probably omit the "spring" from circlip.

[Andy Cubin]

Into the engine now so need this diagram label-checking for accurate terminology:

Thanks

[iansoady]

More interesting stuff Andy. Seat is normally referred to as saddle (which I see you use as well). The split pins you refer to as holding on the leather cover (actually normally leathercloth) are (or should be) in fact bifurcated rivets.

Otherwise looking good.

I'm looking forward to the oily bits which presumably you've already tackled going by other posts.

[Andy Cubin]

The latest instalment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2nK2XchdB0

[singleminded]

Left hand side  ?? at top is the rocker box
                        ? cylinder head bolt , the cylinder stud and head bolt are separate and the rocker box bolt bolts to the head bolt

right hand side  Push tube not push rod..the pushrod is inside the tube..
Getting there though..john

[Andy Cubin]

and...

[Andy Cubin]

Gents,

Working on the engine now - need some labelling checking for accuracy

Cheers

Andy

[VicYouel]

Hi Andy,

A few points:

1. The correct AMAL carb for a 1933-5 model 8 should be engraved 76/001

2. The internal choke diameter is 15/16 ins, the small jet should be stamped with the number 140 and the slide is probably engraved 6/4. The needle position should be number 3 (counting from the top I think?).

3. Set the air screw at 1 and a half turns out. Good  starting point.

4. Check that the slide is a very good fit..... I employ a  sucking and blowing technique on the manifold to ensure there is suction through the pilot jet when  the side is fully closedl.

5. In your video the gasket on the large bottom union is not shown.... make sure when fitted it does not obscure t he hole in t he bottom of the brass block.

6. I am wondring why there is no throttle stop/adjuster and also how the two cables are adjusted.

7. As Ian has stated, genuine AMAL parts are essential. I had a horrible experience with a brass pattern throttle needle that was only 5 thou out on the taper diameter. Martin Bratby is the best man for carb stuff IMHO.

All the best and keep the cameras rolling.... this could take a year!!

Vic

[Andy Cubin]

Enjoy your break Ian,

pester me whenever

Andy

[iansoady]

Hi Andy.

I'll be away for a couple of weeks so will leave you in peace!

But look forward to catching up........

[Andy Cubin]

Thanks Ian,

I'll pick up these points tomorrow and re-edit.

Top of the engine coming off tomorrow as well - very excited.

Andy

[iansoady]

Another edge-of-the-seat episode!

More from the armchair critic:

0. The title has a missing "r" in carburettor........

1. It's the slide that goes up & down not the jet block (unless there's something seriously wrong)

2. There is normally a spring clip that bears on the knurled carb top to stop it unscrewing itself (it's also quite effective stopping you from unscrewing it intentionally). I always put a little wedge made out of a spring clothes peg to hold this out of engagement when removing / replacing the cap as it makes life easier.

3. I know all your nuts, bolts etc are slack to start with but I would always take the float chamber cap off while the chamber is still attached to the carb & bike as otherwise it's hard to hold. Same applies to the base hexagon.

4. What I don't think you mentioned is the small hexagon towards the side of the float chamber cap that distorts the thread to act as a locking device. This should be slackened before removing the cap.

Sorry if this all seems somewhat nit-picking. I would have loved something like this 50 years ago when I first started working on bikes. All I had were my dad's well-thumbed Motorcycles and how to Manage Them and the Motorcyclist's Workshop.......

[Andy Cubin]

Part 7 - The Carb strip down for any of you following:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK8tdv8b5Iw

any glitches or errors, please let me know

cheers

Andy

[Andy Cubin]

Thanks John,

Main Jet pic is re-labelled thanks to you.

Steep is not the word!  Plenty of help from you and the other good folks at MS.

Cheers

Andy

[singleminded]

Last photo.
Brass bit in the bottom is the main jet and the part labelled 'main jet' is the throttle needle jet.
The 106 on the side is the size, same goes for the number on the brass main jet.
make sure you get genuine jets from Amal. There are a lot of 'copies' out there labelled 'Amal' but not made by them and the sizes are not correct at all.
Good stuff so far by the way..It's a pretty steep learning curve you are on..John

[Andy Cubin]

and finally for today:

[Andy Cubin]

Thanks Ian - my diagrams amended accordingly.  You are correct - there is no throttle stop.  Pilot screw was screwed in by me to not fall loose during the strip down - now adjusted.

This shot should be correct:

[iansoady]

Looking good Andy. For some reason Amal spelt it "carburetter" but carburettor is the more normal spelling. Most of the terms are fine although I would call it the air slide. Perhaps good to call the needle "throttle needle" to avoid confusion with the float chamber needle when you get there, and it's cutaway not cut out.

Interestingly your carb doesn't seem to have a throttle stop unless it's on the other side (but it's normally on the same side as the pilot air screw). The pilot air screw looks to be very firmly screwed down as the spring is fully coilbound. A normal starting point would be 1 1/2 to 2 turns out from fully home (but not tightly screwed in as it's easy to distort the screw and its seating).

[Andy Cubin]

also:

[Andy Cubin]

as well as...

[Andy Cubin]

and...

[Andy Cubin]

Superb Ian - many thanks - I am still a bit of a schoolboy 

Label check time please folks - I am stripping the carb/float chamber so want to get the terminology right before narrating the video.  Could you please check my labels on these shots and the ones that follow and correct my mistakes?

Many thanks
Andy

[iansoady]

Another nice episode Andy. I'd never thought of using those interdental brushes - good tip. And I liked the diagram although "union pipe" wouldn't be the term I'd use.

Most taps have a copper or brass mesh filter on the tank end to stop any large bits getting through although I see yours didn't. Another thing you might consider especially if the tap has been leaking at all (and those metal-to-metal ones are notorious for slight weeping) is to lap the conical section into the body using metal polish - Brasso used to be the usual choice. You do this in a similar manner to grinding in valves - a thin smear of polish on the taper then oscillate backwards and forwards till the faces have a nice matt finish. Yours didn't look too bad - in extreme cases you need to use fine grinding paste. And of course in either case a thorough wash afterwards to get rid of it.

I use carb cleaner these days rather than meths as it's designed for the job.

I didn't see a spring under the nut - these taps usually have one to hold the tapers firmly together. And of course if that nut unscrewed itself you's have petrol gushing down over the spark plug etc so I'd be putting some low strength loctite or similar on it.

ps this ebay item shows both the gauze and spring: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CHROME-FUEL-TAPS-2-LEVER-TYPE-BSA-TRIUMPH-NORTON-AJS-ARIEL-SUNBEAM-MATCHLESS-/221998945432?hash=item33b02b1498:g:pbwAAOSw5dNWnVH~ - although the chrome plating is non-standard.

[Andy Cubin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR3znb2D1U0

Part 6 for the Fuel Tap strip down.

Thanks for the advice Ian - once I have sourced all the bits. I'll make new studs and re-edit Part 5.

Cheers

Andy

[iansoady]

Hi Andy.

Now watched the episode - more good stuff. Just a couple of points in addition to Vic's:

1. I would always take studs out before applying the die as it's very easy to slip and put a ding in the paint. This is easily done by locking 2 nuts together on the thread. However:

2. That thread you show yourself running the nut down is far too far gone. The 2-nut dodge mentioned above may not work - you may be forced to use mole grips. Remember that you have to take into account the thickness of the frame lug and a rubber washer underneath. So I would bite the bullet and make new studs.

3. This is easy enough - with the studs out check the thread in the tank which is usually BSW (also known as Whitworth - a coarse thread). You really need one of these:



To make a stud, the easiest way is to get a bolt - there are loads of online suppliers of both stainless and plated items - (note a bolt has a plain shank with the end threaded - if the thread runs all the way to the head it's called a setscrew) with the Whitworth thread on one end and a long enough shank for the Cycle or BSF thread for the nut. Cut off the head leaving the right length for the fine thread then use your die to cut the thread. Or you may be lucky enough to find someone who will supply studs.

Keep it up - it's a bit cold in the garage today! Although it does look to me as though the filming was done on a balmy summer's day......

[iansoady]

Part 4 - Tank removal, for those of you following this:

Call that a spanner? These are spanners:



.... and saws (plus more spanners)



.... and hammers (plus more spanners)



.... and machine shop (plus more spanners)



Can't find a way for photobucket to orient them correctly.......

[iansoady]

Before 1932 threads were BSC  and 5/16 studs had 26 threads per inch (tpi).

Vic

It's worth mentioning that not all CEI (Cycle) threads are 26 tpi - some are 20tpi although this is deprecated in the British Standard. For example, the clutch stops on my Model 10 are 5/8" x 20tpi. It is however true that 5/16" are always 26 tpi - and 1/4" BSF are 26 tpi as well so non-purists can mix & match these.

I haven't viewed that video yet but hadn't realised you were getting into threads. You will by now have read the appropriate chapter in the book!

WRT taps and dies, Tracy Tools are excellent suppliers of all thread types at reasonable prices.

www.tracytools.com

[Andy Cubin]

Indeed I do Ian - got it just last week.  Bedtime reading when Mrs C has found I have nicked her towels and baking trays!

Cheers

Andy

[iansoady]

Do you have a copy of The Vintage Motorcyclist's Workshop by Radco (published by Haynes)? This was unobtainable for years but has recently been reprinted.

It's the best collection of information on fettling old bikes I've ever come across.

[Andy Cubin]

Excellent feedback Vic,

This is exactly what we need in terms of critique so that we can all benefit - many thanks for your input.

Part 6 will be about the fuel tap which I have stripped down and re-built (the wrong way up first time!)

Cheers

Andy

[VicYouel]

Andy,

A few comments about the last chapter:

1. Before 1932 threads were BSC  and 5/16 studs had 26 threads per inch (tpi). Then they changed to BSF with 22 tpi .... the nut looks awfully floppy on  the stud. You have used a bsf die and am wondering whether this is correct and whether you have the right nut? The rubber washers look to be about 1/4 inch thick which is a bout right.

2. Has the inner of the  tank been sealed with a coating? This used to be brand called Petseal that does react with modern fuels and causes the carburetter to get blocked and all  sorts of problems. Does the inside surface feel sticky?

3. The petrol tap should have a gauze filter. This " tapered cock" type I find particularly troublesome and they tend to bind in use. There are better ones out with ethanol resistant seals and a filter. Yours has has 1/4 BSP thread fitting (that's British Standard Pipe by the way) in the tank.

Hope this is helpful for  your excellent informative videos

Vic

[Andy Cubin]

The tank fettling episode - Part 5:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhPYKhXAiUg

[Andy Cubin]

Thanks Ian,

Believe me, I am learning a vast amount each day and of course, what I am looking at now may well be opposite to what I assumed to be correct back at Part 1.  That's a great deal of useful information on the spanner sizes and now that my BSFs are here, I have to explain to Mrs C why I need so many spanners!

The Carb and Float Chamber being stripped down now, but its perishing in my garage...

Onward!

[iansoady]

Hi Andy.

More good stuff although I suspect if you're going into this much detail this may turn into something of a saga!

A few minor points which I hope you don't mind.

1. The thing you refer to as a fuel control valve is in fact a fuel tap.

2. You mention spanners / bolt sizes. There are 2 entirely different "Imperial" systems for spanners - A/F which are used on USA-built machinery and a lot of 1960s British vehicles such as Norton, BMC etc. A/F means "Across Flats" and the spanner size is denoted by the distance across the flats of the nut / bolt. Threads for these are either UNF or UNC. A 5/16" UNF bolt will have a 1/2" A/F spanner.

As you correctly point out, the Sunbeam (and virtually all British vehicles earlier than the 1960s) uses the British Standard convention. Here, the spanner size is denoted by the bolt diameter. Interestingly, hexagon sizes for BSW (coarse) are one size down than those for BSF (fine) so 5/16 Whit is the same hexagon as 3/8" BSF. I will not go into thread forms at this point but at some stage you will need to know the difference between the BSF / BSW and CEI (Cycle) threads. A/F spanners DO NOT fit BS nuts / bolts. Neither do metric spanners although sometimes they can be useful for worn / damaged fasteners. Sunbeam, like other manufacturers of the time, may also have used some oddball sizes / threads.

3. I would have removed the seat before the tank as it's very easy to catch the latter on the forks when removing it and damage the finish. With the seat off it's easy to withdraw it backwards.

4. I have abandoned my one-time cherished Moore & Wright micrometers and now use a cheap digital caliper. I cannot tell any difference in accuracy, it's much easier to use, and offers the facility to change between metric and imperial at the push of a button. In any case. a metric micrometer would not be ideal for working on a bike such as the Sunbeam.

Keep it up!

[Andy Cubin]

Part 4 - Tank removal, for those of you following this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGDdfKDZij4

cheers

Andy

[wessex_man]

Hi Andy
Nice looking Model 8. Interesting project to understand the workings of a 1930's  bike and sharing your discoveries along the way with everyone.

I can't add much to what others have added already. Just a word of caution when you take the head off the engine and put it back together. Take care to ensure that the head stud bolts are level. If you don't and you tighten the head you could crack the rocker box securing lugs. It's a weakness and you commonly see welded rocker box covers.  The earlier models had side plates which bolted to the head and I don't know why Sunbeams made the change.

The only other engine weakness is sometimes the rivets can come loose on the flywheels. When you strip it down look for this. It's expensive to fix. I've not long had a model 9 set repaired with new oversized shafts main bearings and small end fitted. It should be good for another 80 odd years now.

The tank is interesting on your bike the flip top arrangement was fitted to the racers (80's and 90's). One thing you will find out is that you will never see two Beams which look the same. I put it down to the fact that they were hand build and the end customer could specify extras they wanted.

Happy biking looking forward to how your series develops. 
David
WM

[Andy Cubin]

I agree about the horn - sticks out like a dogs whatsits.

I'll replace this as and when I can get an alternative.

Away for a few days, then back at it.

Thanks all